Monday, May 5, 2008

Pesach now, Insanity later

Just had a conversation with one of my psycho frummy bal tshuva friends. This guy goes to feel good lectures and listens to tapes, however, when it comes to learning halacha, looks like it's too boring for him. This is actually the same conversation, about the same topic and the same store I had with him last year. He wanted to get something to eat and asked me if I know of any places that are still open. I told him he can get sushi on avenue M or if not too lazy, drive to Shoprite. Shoprite is, I'm pretty sure, owned by a Jew and sells sushi under a good hashgocha. He tells me that he's not sure if the owner sold the chometz properly so you can't buy sushi there. What?! I tell him that, one, there's a good hashgocha there and two, sushi is not chometz, though soy sauce is. His reply is that the hashgocha is only there for the cooking and you can't trust them to make sure that the store sold chometz properly and that you can't buy sushi because chometz might not have been sold properly. No point arguing with this guy since he's not much interested in learning halacha, he loves chumras though, so I just left. Last year he said he wants to ask a Rabbi, same thing he said this year and same thing he'll say next year.

There are plenty of books and online sources for halacha. If you want to know, you can find out or you ask a rabbi or go to a shiur. What infuriates me is that these people don't know halacha, gonna argue with you because you're not a rabbi and apparently know nothing because of that and they're not gonna bother asking or finding out themselves. One happy thought is that for them, ignorance is not bliss. Out of their own stupidity and stubbornness they're going to make their own lives worse.

35 comments:

  1. I hate people like that. Just had a conversation with a friend of mine, doesnt learn anything other than inspirational stories. She believes what her teachers say when they claim "halacha", and then she argues when I show her sources!!

    Everytime I speak to her I get a headache...and she used to be smarter...then she went to seminary!

    Is ShopRite really owned by Jews?

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  2. Pretty sure, 90%, I think also not religious.

    This guy is worse, he doesn't even go to halacha shiurim, just makes up chumras by himself and still argues out of his ignorance.

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  3. These are also the same people that will say about things that don't require hashgocha that it's better to buy with hashgocha because you never know. Yes, you never know halacha and that's why you say all the stupid stuff you say.
    Hashgocha on rice, coffee, tea, etc. because you never know.

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  4. Why is soy sauce chometz? I thought soy is kitniyos!

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  5. Check the ingredients, most soy sauces contain wheat.

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  6. That makes sense. lol.


    I never look at ingredients for these things, its kitniyos anyway!

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  7. If I were like that, I think my head would explode. I don't care who sold their chametz. Trade me green and black paper for kosher food and I am the winner, every time. My mashgiach can beat up his mashgiach. It must suck to stress so much over stuff.

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  8. Actually Shoprite is not owned by a jew. Don't ask how I know that, it's just too scary a tale to tell. It involved my local Shoprite, a couple of pallets of flour and other such chometz, and a horde of yeshivish Jews on Motzei Pesach. Let your imagination run wild, it can't be as bad as the truth.

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  9. Now you really gotta tell me. They bought pallets of chometz or they came to burn the chometz? What? And is this the one on McDonald?
    Shoprite is a franchise so each store has a different owner.

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  10. This post made me chuckle. I also had friends like this. But since I have limited amount of time to socialize I decided there is no point in spending this time on them.
    This friends also tend to pull 'holier than thou' on you sooner or later.
    Anywho, I think they are still blissful in their ignorance since they think they've done a mitzva...

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  11. Unfortunately, I have to see these people in shul on a regular basis.

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  12. Oh crap, I typed out the whole Shoprite story for you and lost it when trying to post.

    In short, for fear of using any chometz that might have been owned by a jew and sold on Pesach, some of the community arranged with Shoprite to have pallets of their chometz needs put out on Motzaie Yom Tov for them to swarm all over like ants and buy by the cartful. There were oats, flour, rice, barley etc My husband, a yeshiva educated, orthodox raised guy, was so confused by what he saw he had to stop someone and ask about it - he was told this is a Monsey Chumra specially arranged for this segment of the jewish population. My husband, in his state of shock, forgot to ask for how long after Pesach they eat only chometz they made from ingredients purchased at Shoprite. Is it a week? A month? The whole year?

    My husband called me from there in disbelief and encouraged me to go videotape the insanity. I was too tired to, but if I am here next Pesach I will be there, video camera in hand to record it for posterity.

    It sounds less insane written than it was in reality.

    Never mind that the halachos of selling ones chometz were invented for a reason. Never mind that by buying all of their long term chometz needs from a non-jew, they are depriving their jewish grocery store owners of a parnassah. Never mind that a jewish Shoprite employee might have been handling the chometz on pesach to get it ready for their insanity. Never mind that they're going to pass this chumra on as a minhag which will then become halacha.

    These people are out of their farking gourds! What's next? New dishes, pots and utensils every year? Jewish store owners being required to throw out their chometzdike stock every ever pesach to keep their good standing within the community?

    Most importantly - what in God's name has happened to the Orthodox community? WTF is in the carefully filtered water that is driving these people off religious the deep end?

    Oh btw, I googled Shoprite. According to the almighty Wikipedia, it is a cooperative chain, with 43 independent owners. (Hmmm I wonder, are all 43 non jews? If it's a cooperatively owned chain wouldn't they all have to be in order for their chometz to qualify as non-jewish enough to be eaten post pesach?)

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  13. Hold on, they decided that chometz cannot be sold at all? And are we talking about the same store or not?

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  14. Sadly, that seems to be the case. They have decided to take on a Chumra not to consume Chometz that was owned by a jew on Pesach even if it was sold for the duration of Pesach. (Which technically means it was not owned by a jew on Pesach according to the concept of selling chometz, but reality and fact are not applicable to these people.)

    This was the Shoprite in Monsey.

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  15. chanief: That story is waaay crazy!

    These people are nuts! I wonder what they'll come up with next.

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  16. ummm...
    well...
    ah...
    the...
    STOP THE INSANITY!

    do they still sell their own chometz or they throw everything out?

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  17. Well, I happen to know some of the people who live in Monsey and buy chometz motzei Yom Tov. And they are by far not crazy and ignorant of halachah.

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  18. Are they the majority though?

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  19. You said you know "some" people, some is not majority and from what chanief's husband saw, it wasn't four or five people.

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  20. It would be impossible for me to know that many people without actually living in Monsey, so no, I do not know everyone who was standing on line in Shoprite on motzei Yom Tov. What I was trying to say is that you do not know their reason for doing it, yet you already branded them as crazy and ignorant. And while I do not know many of these people, those I do know and who did buy chometz in Shop Rite are all very learned and well versed in halachah. And they do know that what they are doing is a chumrah, but choose to be scrupulous in that matter. And by the way, they don't call anyone who chooses not to do it lazy or ignorant.

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  21. And what's the point of this chumra then? Because you can't trust a Jew to sell chometz properly or because they decided that you can't sell chometz, period?

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  22. I am not sure exactly what the point is since I myself do not do it. I think part of the reason is that the chain of supply is so long, you just never know who the owner of the warehouse is and who owned it before it got on the shelf of the store. And even though the store owner sold his chometz properly, his supplier might not have. That could be just a part of the reason.

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  23. Ah, so you don't know yourself. Well, do me a favor and before you accuse us of calling them crazy, find out exactly why they do it and whether what they do is reasonable or not.
    And what you said can kind of be applied to not Jewish brands, it can't, however be applied to Jewish brand of flour, barley, etc.

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  24. What i said is that I do not know EXACTLY. I do know that what I said is true, but I am not sure if this is the whole reason or just part of it.
    And by the way, you have a responsibility to judge Jews favorably, so I don't really have to prove anything. If you want to call them crazy, then the burden of proof is on you.

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  25. Your reasons don't apply to Jewish brands of which there are many. Those brands get delivered straight to the store from manufacturer.
    As far as judging a Jew favorably, that's not what your friends are doing if they don't trust a Jewish store owner and Jewish factory owner to properly sell chometz.
    btw, would your friends eat in your house?

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  26. Once again, you don't know that they don't trust Jewish owners. You are assuming that. Since you don't know the reason for this chumrah, you are jumping to the worst possibly conclusion.

    Buying in bulk, saving money or yoshon considerations could possibly also play part in this. If you choose to believe that what these people are doing is unreasonable, then the burden of proof is on you, not me. You find out from them directly, not through someone who just like you think that every one who is a bit more observant than yourself, is automatically a crazy fanatic.

    And by the way, these people from Monsey would and did eat in my house.

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  27. Shoprite doesn't charge less for bulk purchases. They're taking away business from Jewish store owners and the burden of proof is on you since all of your points are invalid and your post is after chanief.

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  28. You patronize ShopRite, don't you? Aren't you taking away business from Jewish store owners when you do it? Why are your reasons any more valid than anyone else's?

    I see no point in arguing on this topic any further. You choose to look at these people a certain way even before you got a chance to find out why they are doing what they are doing. You don't know them personally either, yet you call them ignorant. I know them and they are not ignorant, but you still think that you know better than me or them. So I see no point in carrying on this discussion.

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  29. Who said I do? I'm very rarely there. I patronize Paperific, Glatt Mart and Mountain Fruit. Sometimes Avi Glatt and Moisha's Discount.
    Now where do you shop?

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  30. Mountain Fruit and Avi Glatt mostly. Glatt Mart, Shop Rite and Moisha's on occasion.

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  31. btw, as I mentioned earlier, I'm pretty sure out Shoprite is owned by a Jew so even if I occasionally buy something there, I'm still buying from a Jew.
    Tea and beer on the other hand are a whole different matter. No Jewish store sells real tea, for that I go to one of the Japanese stores or China Town or online from Stash. Jewish stores' selection of beer is abysmal, though Moisha's and Avi's do have Smirnoff Ice. Sushi rice I would also not buy in a Jewish store. I think Shoprite may carry calrose rice but I might as well go to Japanese store and grab some Kirin together with the rice.

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  32. Oh boy, I had no intention in starting anything here... sorry!

    subwife - I don't recall calling them crazy or ignorant, I said they were out of their gourds and driving off the religious deep end, and I stand by those accusations.

    My husband asked one of the shoppers (someone he knows) and the guy didn't seem to clear on why he was even doing this, he said his Rav paskened this way and arranged it, therefore they do it. That seems rather ignorant to me, but it could be just that guy.

    I was raised in a very frum home, as was my husband - neither of us has ever seen or heard of any such thing. We were so surprised by what he saw there that we've been telling people about it and asking them what they know about it and I have yet to meet a single frum person who has ever heard of such a chumra.

    I just wonder why everyone is trying so hard to out-frum their neighbor. What's the point? When does it stop?

    I could really go on for a long time about this because it bugs me to no end, but we can just agree to disagree because I am far too lazy.

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  33. It'll stop when we're sitting in a dark cave around a fire and eating bread with salt and water.
    Then they'll band salt.

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  34. LOL Moshe. Salt might make the bread taste good which could lead to simcha. Simcha might lead to signing, possibly by a woman and we all know how evil kol isha is!! (See, I should be a Rav ;o)

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